WORLD, Page 70Sisulu: "We Want Immediate Change"Freed after 26 years in jail, a black leader talks to TIME aboutthe futureBy Walter Sisulu, Scott MacLeod
Three days after his release from prison, Walter Sisulu met at
his Soweto home with Johannesburg bureau chief Scott MacLeod.
Sitting on a bed beside schoolbooks that belonged to his
grandchildren, Sisulu began the interview only minutes after seven
policemen departed. They had asked Sisulu to disperse groups of
youngsters who were gathering outside. Excerpts:
Q. The police have just paid you a visit. Is there a problem?
A. That was General Viktor, the commander for this region. He
was quite polite. He said it was time we wind things up. He doesn't
want to be forced to act. I told him to give us a few days. By the
way, General Viktor is the man who took my fingerprints 26 years
ago. I said to him, "I remember you. I know you very well. You
charged us." He said, "Yes, I remember."
Q. What have you discovered upon your return to Soweto?
A. What is new is the political consciousness. Even in the
ordinary kid in primary school. The quality of the young people who
are now handling the situation is very high. When we were running
things, we never reached that stage.
Q. You met with Nelson Mandela just five days before your
release.
A. When I saw him, I said, "You have never looked so bright."
He looked tip-top. He told us the authorities had decided to
release us and expressed his delight.
Q. Has Mandela discussed other matters with the government?
A. He told the government that there would be no solutions
unless it met with the African National Congress and that it was
the duty of the government to create the necessary conditions.
Q. Do you think F.W. de Klerk wants to negotiate with the
A.N.C.?
A. I think he has such aims.
Q. Is Mandela in effect leading the anti-apartheid movement
from prison?
A. The A.N.C. has an elected leadership. Whatever Mandela does,
he first has to consult those leaders. Although the A.N.C.
recognizes Mandela's standing, he cannot direct the group. What he
can do, and what he has done, is communicate with the movement,
reporting what he has done or what is being said to him (by the
government).
Q. When will Mandela be free?
A. I don't know. But it is his opinion that he will not be
released this year.
Q. De Klerk speaks about a step-by-step process. Thus far he
has permitted protests and released some political prisoners. Is
this a reasonable approach?
A. As long as he is beginning to recognize the voice of the
people, we do appreciate that. But we don't want a step-by-step
process. We want immediate radical change.
Q. The government says anybody favoring peaceful change can
participate in talks. Does the A.N.C. meet this condition?
A. That type of thing we dismiss with contempt. The armed
struggle continues. Until the government negotiates a new
situation, including the end of violence, there is no way of
stopping it.
Q. Do you believe you will see black majority rule in your
lifetime?
A. I think so, because of the interaction of various forces
internationally and at home, including the conflict among
Afrikaners themselves.
Q. What can you do to calm the fears of whites who are
concerned about black domination?
A. This is old propaganda. The most important thing is to
educate the Afrikaners and the whites in general. When Afrikaners
meet the A.N.C., they all come back impressed.
Q. Can education work?
A. In my cell I was alone but guarded all the time by a (white)
warder. He would make comments and become very hostile when he saw
certain things about the A.N.C. on TV. I then took a chance to talk
to him, to educate him. In the end, he understood.
